It seems Linus’s position is very clear now
Is this why they recently added nieu rules to not be mean to Claude?
AI ethics aside (but not discounted overall), if there’s one person I trust above all others to use an LLM to assist in coding properly, it’s Linus Torvalds.
use an LLM to assist in coding properly
This is categorically impossible for any ways in which the LLM could reasonably “assist”.
Putting aside any potentially elitist definitions of the word “properly” and simply taking it to mean “code that functions and isn’t malware”, you’re stuck with the same modus operandi you get copy-pasting snippets from stack overflow and hand editing them to fit your codebase.
To wit: you still need to go over every single bit of code to determine whether or not it’s safe to include in your existing codebase, and unlike stack overflow, output from an LLM isn’t being simultaneously examined by other experts for flaws at the same time you’re looking at it.
We need to stop treating LLM’s like they’re in any way a “robot programmer”.
They are database reorganization engines
(data lake of indexed, ingested material)
with a static output style
(resemble human speech patterns)
that is specifically, deliberately written to deceive about its own capability and purpose.
(speak with confidence, which is a thing that a script or a program cannot have, as though it is performing a specific requested task and not just vomiting up the contents of its proverbial shelves because someone handed it an hand crafted index card that menrions a few things from the card catalog it uses)
There should be no place for that in programming.
It may be that LLMs are database reorganization engines, but they are becoming pretty fucking good at it lately. I don’t have experience with them writing C, but for higher level-languages the output has just become very good.
“With great power comes great responsibility.”
Great can they make a fucking rgb sliding color changer for Wayland? Fucking sucks not being able to see dark scenes and yeah I tried all the other color profiles.
If we’re gonna be screaming switch to Linux how about we mimic the Intel color manager?
Different group. You should submit a feature request to the Wayland devs!
Wayland isn’t a piece of software, it’s a protocol. So I don’t know where the feature request should go (depends on the desktop environment), but not to Wayland.
I have a feeling they aren’t gonna listen.
Mint didn’t have a color manager, neither did Debian. They only have color profiles that you can not edit. x11 you can do that terminal trick if you know what you’re doing but it’s crazy that Wayland style can’t handle it or I’m an idiot.
Hopefully LLMs may help fix some random small bugs or rewrite legacy code.
Lemmy is gonna lose its mind. Lmao!
Bbbbbb-but muhhh linucks
I actually do think that someone who already has multiple decades of experience in programming without using AI is probably not producing shoddier code after incorporating it into their workflow. Important modern software projects, whose backbones are programmers fitting that description, aren’t going to be worse in the present because of Claude usage. I remain strongly against it though, because normalizing its usage guarantees the future won’t have programmers that fit that description running the shows.
I think this can be framed as a statement about generative AI in general: If you think AI has been making everything shittier today, just wait until you see what it’s been doing to everything tomorrow.
I actually do think that someone who already has multiple decades of experience in programming without using AI is probably not producing shoddier code after incorporating it into their workflow
While it’s not impossible that someone like that exists, the number of times I’ve seen someone push LLM generated code that LOOKS okay on a first glance to experienced eyes but turns out to result in things like the code as a whole suddenly ignoring all permission groups and just letting everyone through in one particular area, or allowing directory traversal, or injection, or any number of otherwise rookie mistakes is high enough that everyone, especially programmers with decades of experience should be extremely concerned.
… then you win
deleted by creator
I can’t wait for a base linux install to be 60 GB of slop, like windows.
Year of the BSD desktop!
As long as Linus Torvalds lives, which I hope will be forever, the Linux kernel will never be AI slop.
Whether any particular distro is slop, that’s another story.
Nobody freaks out when skilled programmers/professionals use AI, it’s actually a tool for them and not full-on skill substitution.
Nobody freaks out when skilled programmers/professionals use AI
Wrong. Because there are inherent problems with ethics, such as data it has been trained on and licensing questions. Also using LLM might decrease your competence over time. This also gives too much power to those few companies who control what data and logic the Ai is fed with. Even skilled programmers, professionals or not, get lazy.
BTW I am not 100% anti Ai, but I’m not a pro vibe. I think its fine the way some developers use Ai tools. But regardless how it is used, the ethical and licensing questions remain.
Yeah, of all the people out there using Claude, he’s the absolute least worrisome. He’ll read the whole thing, and if he doesn’t like anything at all that it does, he won’t let it do it.
What you’re saying is that if you aren’t a famous programmer you deserve to be ridiculed for using the same tool?
And how do you square this with all the crying about water?!
Nobody cares how famous a person is (in relation to this issue). If anything, the position and power a person has is much more important.
Not if you’re famous, if you’re bad at coding on your own
Where did I say famous? Read harder. Water concerns are separate from wreckless vibe-coding concerns.
lots of people freak out actually (not me)
If I’m at the wheel or some other newbie vibe coder, FTFO. Senior devs that use it as a time-saving tool? I’m happy to trust their judgement.
Linus has said that he reads compiler output. I have no doubt that he reads the code, I’m not particularly worried about bad code.
I just hope he doesn’t get lazy and brainrotted like I’ve seen happen with coworkers. People who used to call themselves “software craftsmen” now shipping 1k+ line changesets with fully generated documentation.
… obviously he can read it but you people insist it takes so much more time to do it this way. Linus is proving that is a lie. Why would he do that if writing code was so much easier?
Also you people cry about the water usage etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. the water is being used here. Why is it okay for him to do it?
You also don’t know him. Maybe he’s not reading every piece of code.
Yall are hypocrites. Fucking hypocrites. And yall gatekeep from people “you don’t know”(aka if you aren’t already fucking famous you’ve got the mark of the beast Abe deserve ridicule). Yall can’t see how you’re fighting the fight for the oligarchs. You can’t see how you pick and choose who is allowed to use new tech. Fuck all of yall hypocrites. You’re wrong.
Also you people cry about the water usage etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. the water is being used here. Why is it okay for him to do it?
It’s not.
Any chance Claude code could come up with a solution that would fall under the copyright of a third party?
Linux Foundation has financial backers. He’s gotta give them lip service to keep them excited and happy. Anthropic is now a Gold Member. Oracle, Microsoft, Google, Meta, Amazon are all Platinum Members.
FOSS has always been subject to corporate meddling in their governance. There’s a reason we call it Linux and not GNU-Linux. GNU gets no money so GNU goes nowhere.
Linus gives a headline using agents, Linux gets millions to continue doing real work. That’s the game they are playing, for better or worse.
Linus regularly posted on Google+, it’s more like he himself isn’t that into foss and sees everything as a utility to use
Linus has been critical of Gplv3. I dont think he would use Gplv2 again if he could start over.
I wouldn’t even disagree with considering it. Look at how corporately independent the BSDs are… and they are just as capable in most fields as Linux.
I’m unsure which license is the best path anymore. That said the outcome would likely be the same eitherway.
Nobody can prove this is the case. Linus sees coding LLMs as an inevitable evolution and compares them to what compilers were for Assembly.
I don’t personally think this particular use of LLMs is unethical, but using open models would definitely improve the look.
Corporate affecting the direction of Linux, directly or indirectly is simply a fact.
Go read the bios of the Linux Foundation Execs and Board of Directors. Ai is often the first thing they mention. Take the CEO or the Chair. BOD includes Microsoft, Oracle and lots of direct Ai stakeholders.
$$$ says Linux kernal serves Ai now. Thats the politics of FOSS non-profits.
The reactions to this have been pretty hysterical considering this is an experimental branch on his own repository. I’m not surprised he might experiment with using AI agents to solve a particular pain point to see how it does. This is using agents to experiment with things that you might not have time to address normally.
Another recent example is the build system where the author said:
An LLM was used to first determine where the bottlenecks were then to figure out how to improve them. It generated a lot of code, much of it hideous.
I extensively audited and rewrote a lot of it, and heavily edited commit messages, the cover letter and comments.
off-loading the boring grunt work of identifying bottle necks and trying new approaches seems like an ideal task for a junior agent to deal with as long is you don’t YOLO the result to the lists for other humans to de-slopify for you.
as long is you don’t YOLO the result to the lists for other humans to de-slopify for you.
(Or not de-slopify at all.)
There’s literally no one I trust more to handle llm code more than Linus.
He’s not going to pass off shit in his name. He’ll use it in the best possible way.
Lots of reasons to be anti-AI, but it’s not all black and white. It’s here to stay and it’s useful. (But we ain’t gonna spend 400 billion a year on it.)
I have never met an engineer i trust with an llm. I doubt i’d trust linus
People cannot seem to grasp that there is a difference in using LLMs to experiment and just blindly using code written by an LLM. You’d think they would realize Linus is never going to do the latter. Binary thinking leads to this…
is there a difference in the environmental destruction when used this way? no? these things have so many negative effects on the world in so many areas that making life more convenient for coddled computer touches doesn’t excuse literally any of it
is there a difference in the environmental destruction when used this way?
Yes. There is no doubt that if you use an LLM for everything that will use several fold more times electricity than someone who uses it a few times a year.
Like I said, binary thinking. You’re literally saying there is no difference in 1 and 1000000 because both are more than zero.
so the less you use it, the better? glad we can agree
Right, so we know Linus has used Claude for one project. You are saying there is no excuse for that and I don’t agree. I don’t think it makes sense to take absolute stances against things that will undoubtedly be used by most everyone eventually. Just like I think cars are generally bad, I’m not about to get pissed off at everyone who drives them.
the earth doesn’t care if you think this is a good use or linus is somehow worthy when the regular plums aren’t.
dario and his epstein wife sure do though. so keep going to bat for them
Your absolutism will take you nowhere. No one will bother to even listen you because you aren’t able to communicate about this topic.
burning a million gallons of desil to get a 1% efficiency improvement in all desil engines will result in less total desil consumption in less than a year. The linux kernel is used enough you need to consider the billions of users that will each get a small efficiency improvement.
LLM companies will legitimize their shit by saying “look, Linus is using our model to make Linux better”.
Okay, and? So he should either change his own processes or keep them secret because some dickbag might claim he’s legitimized their product?
I think people in a bubble like this platform seem to miss that AI tools are already “legitimized”. I am not stating an opinion, I’m just saying what the average person thinks, which is that they are useful. The reality is a lot more complicated than that and I think they’re leading us bad places but I don’t think your argument works at all
The tools are “legitimized” by a mass ad campaign to shove LLMs down our throats.
Linus is a very influential person in this space and hin using Claude for whatever project he has will legitimize the massive ad campaign that LLMs companies are pushing. It’s a jackpot for them. Organic publicity by one of the biggest nerd of the world.
Any push towards LLMs is only benefiting the ultra wealthy and destroying the planet. And this is exactly what this piece of news is doing.
Even if you were right this message would be irrelevant to 99% of the population and within the 1% who know or care who he is, minimum 75% wouldn’t be swayed by him saying that. Plus, him saying he used it is not praise.
For me, there’s more to it than just the output. But I’m sure Linus won’t let his mind rot in LLM. Yet. Still… Lots of reasons to object to using AI at all. Use a computer responsibly, folks.
I can absolutely understand some of the objections and I understand why writers and artists are pissed. My code has always been free software so I don’t object to it being in the training sets because that seems fair use according to the four freedoms.
The power usage is definitely a concern but that holds up for all computing. I don’t see people up in arms about inefficient CI loops retesting the whole world for a single line change. Think of savings that could be made!
My code has always been free software so I don’t object to it being in the training sets because that seems fair use according to the four freedoms.
But what about the output of an LLM that was trained on free software, then being used in closed source, commercial software? 🙁
inefficient CI loops retesting the whole world for a single line change. Think of savings that could be made!
Oh yeah, I’m definitely with you there. Oh gosh.
They probably should be up in arms! Both are bad things, simultaneously, as two things can be!
The reactions to this have been pretty hysterical
i FULLY expected more hate. lol
It seems like the tide is finally starting to turn here in terms of LLM usage. Even 4 months ago this thread would be a nightmare lol
He used ai from evil american capitalist corporations, instead of one from good chinese communist corporations though.
he’s a us empire aligned capitalist – of course he would
Absolutely. When communist AGI takes over the world, people like him would get what they deserve.
It’s a slippery slope. So far Linus has gone from using it to find bugs, to using it as a programming assistant, and now ostensibly to vibecode entire features.
Where will it end? Will Linus shut off external contributions and let the agents loose like Bun did? That would be a tragedy in my book.
The phrase vibecode has become totally meaningless. The original use was too “give in too the vibes” and let the agent go wild. There is no indication that is what Linus is doing.
The fact is LLM’s have proven to be good at finding bugs. Suitably constrained they can be diligent and helpful assistants.
The Bun experience is instructive and if that was Linus’ end goal it would be concerning but I don’t see any evidence that any of the Linux maintainers are interested in that sort of wholesale conversion. The good projects with taste will adjust to the new tools and the slop projects will eventually collapse under their own contradictory architectures.
We can just fork the latest kernel version we feel comfortable with.
My issue isn’t with using AI to work on the Linux Kernel. My issue is working on the kernel with proprietary AI which enables Sam Altman to claim Millennium Prizes.
I completely agree, using an open model would be far more inline with the spirit of open source.
Yeah, I’m quickly seeing a future where stuff like this AI rewrite of the Adobe suite may need to be distributed as the model that makes the software and not the software itself. If that becomes the case then we really will have entered into a world where tech bros control everything as you will quickly find yourself in a world where you can’t use the software if you don’t have the compute to make it.
I can see a completely different kind of future where local models that run on commodity software get good enough for what most people need to do. At that point we’d be in a world that Stallman envisioned with every user having full control over what’s running on their machine, and being able to build whatever features they want. We already see how it’s becoming trivial to reverse engineer complex apps like Photoshop, or to crack PS5 games using LLMs. We are likely end up in a world where closed source is dead because code itself no longer has any value because anybody can copy and reproduce any application trivially.
And we are already starting to get there. Qwen 3.8 27b is comparable in terms of capability to Opus 4.6 which was a frontier model just half a year ago. If Qwen 4 gets to about Opus 5.5 level sometime next year, that’s going to be good enough for making vast majority of software that people need. After that it’s just a matter of further optimization or hardware getting better so it can run on most computers. But just to reiterate, it’s already running on consumer grade hardware, and it can do real work today.
It looks like many AI skeptics have been having a change of heart and maybe some growing dread. You spend the time and it streamlines through the tough problem and it cracks firmware, builds valid specs, reverse engineer enterprise software, it’s been an interesting week.
In some ways I think it might be good, perhaps a significant decrease in proprietary prison cage ecosystems. But at the same time, I have an ever growing dread that we are jumping off the knowledge cliff. The most experienced people are seeing revolutionary productivity, while the least experienced are gaining more capability without the foundational knowledge.
The future may have students who learn nothing, know nothing, and worse they will be happy with nothing.
I’m ready to unplug and live a near Amish lifestyle. Fuck modernity.
How the education system adjusts to this tech will be interesting to watch. I expect that humans who understand how stuff works is going to be a requirement for the foreseeable future, and societies will inevitably adjust. There’s always been panic and chaos every time new a disruptive technology has been invented, but humanity inevitably adjusts to it. I don’t see any reason to think this will be any different.
I’d say there is something to panic about. Look at the hand made lace economy vs the Industrial Revolution, the outcome is nearly the complete loss of a skill or art form. Now take what the trend is with these LLMs, we are outsourcing the hard thinking, the struggle, the thing that forces us to expand our knowledge to a device that can do all of that 90% faster; what will the outcome be? Sure there are some people making lace by hand, but as a hobby, will we still have people in the future who will read text and write letters on paper as a hobby in the future?
Just because people spent a lot of time learning a specific skill doesn’t mean it has intrinsic value to it. The reason most people aren’t making lace by hand is because it’s more efficient to automate the process. But nothing stops people learning skills because they enjoy doing them even if these have been automated. I do kenjutsu, it has no practical application, but I enjoy it. I don’t see what the problem here is to be honest.
I’m not sure I agree with the idea that the necessary level of compute will be made available to the average person. We are already well into a paradigm where the average “PC” is an iPad or similar, with Google locking down Android and Microsoft… being Microsoft, I just don’t have any optimism that the future will have the same kind of access to personal computing power or even software access. The “tin-foil hat” part of my brain says that the purchasing years worth of chips output is part of a conspiracy to keep consumers and potential competitors at bay more than it’s a requirement for new models.
I hope I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath.
There are already chips being developed specifically for running LLMs, so it’s almost certain this will become akin to having a GPU in the future.
- https://www.anuragk.com/blog/posts/Taalas.html
- https://wccftech.com/alibabas-tsmc-built-5nm-risc-v-chip-xuantie-c950-now-runs-qwen-3-8-27b-model-natively-unlocking-massive-vertical-integration-tailwinds/
And this tech is now being developed in China as well, so you might not have to rely on western hardware either going forward. Chinese companies are building stuff on top of RSIC-V like the Alibaba chip I linked above, and I fully expect there will be a lot of focus on Linux as China continues to decouple from the US tech stack.
The tech bros have insane GPU lease agreements. More than they can reasonably afford/use. When “amateurs” can recreate photoshop, 1000x “free” (would be wasted) compute at a better photoshop they control is something they can do too, and beat OSS and adobe. There are capable decompiler to readable/organized source code agents now too. At one point, the LLM labs can stop releasing new models, and just steal everything themselves.
They can’t do that unless they all stop releasing new models. And that isnt happening. As China is basically ignoring the US.
The top US labs, if their model progress is sufficient to permit its customers to “steal software”, can instead of releasing new models use them to steal software for themselves.
But whats the point. If that software can be in turn stolen?
Good point. Jev and Muse have been copied after 1 month of release. So happening now.
It’s a good thing Sam Altman isn’t Anthropic !
nitpicking doesnt change the point being made. A corpo getting more control over FOSS is a huge loss for everyone
