Of course no one data point can explain a game’s success or failure, but this is a pretty thorough and mostly objective review of the past 10 years.

  • ampersandrew@lemmy.worldOP
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    4 days ago

    They made a game that’s easier to learn, but not one that’s less difficult to master. Zato has fewer moves, but what they did was make sure that every move was useful, usually in multiple different situations. There’s also the plethora of applications for the new RC system, which is a universal system mechanic that acts as a multiplier for how you can use their unique kits. It’s not even that Zato is different than Sol Badguy at their cores; they’re wholly different from one another at every level, just like in +R. Accessibility is a great thing, and it’s not opposed to either depth or variety. If you want those larger move sets (even though, I’d argue, optimizations of those move sets tend to shrink them down to a possibility space that’s very similar to Strive), you’re allowed to have that preference, but I do think you’ll have a hard time arguing that this roster became homogeneous as a result. It’s extremely asymmetrical, and while SF6’s top tiers rise to the top so quickly that a top 8 will tend to have multiple repeat characters represented, it’s not uncommon to see 9 characters in a top 8 for Strive.

    • mohab@piefed.social
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      4 days ago

      OK, I believe the following:

      1. Characters in Strive are still categorically different from one another.
      2. Characters in Plus R are more unique and distinguishable in more ways from one another than characters in Strive.
      3. Depth is unrelated to breadth.
      4. Accessibility is great.
      5. Accessibility does not have to come at the expense of variety, but it can.
      6. Cutting down moveset size limits variety, especially when the majority of the moves have legitimate use cases and different from one another, as is the case in Plus R.
      7. Limiting variety eliminates knowledge gaps, which limits surprises and upsets; ergo, it makes games more accessible for newcomers.
      8. Strive is guilty of implementing accessibility at the expense of variety.

      Let me demonstrate this:

      Character D can anti-air using moves A, B, and C. Each move is applicable in a different scenario and leads to a different juggle combo.

      Character W can anti-air using moves X, Y, and Z. Each move is applicable in a different scenario and leads to a different juggle combo.

      If I’m counting differences between these two characters, in terms of how the anti-air and those juggle combos work, specifically the conditions for the antiair to hit, move variety and systems used in the subsequent combo, I have 2 more points of difference than I would if each character just had 1 anti-air move and 1 combo route; ergo, they can be considered less homogenous and more different.

      Also, 1 anti-air with 1 route to follow is a lot less for a newbie to deal with, which in turn makes the game more accessible at the expense of variety, but not necessarily at the expense of depth because, at the end of the day, it’s an anti-air and a juggle combo that follows, so not much was lost on that front.

      • ampersandrew@lemmy.worldOP
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        4 days ago

        In my experience, the +R equivalent with three anti airs will always have one that’s just best to use instead of the other two, so you don’t really get that variety. Generally speaking. I play a Strive character with at least 3 very situationally different anti airs (Dizzy).

        I guess my surprise comes from the fact that you think Strive is homogeneous yet you’re looking forward to Melty Blood, because as a layman, I can hardly tell the difference functionally or aesthetically between large parts of that roster when it’s on a stream.

        • mohab@piefed.social
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          3 days ago

          Man, every once in a while I used to jump at them when they’re in the air as if I’m going for air-to-air but do Shadow Gallery instead: I disappear, they whiff, and I get a knockdown. Is this practical to do every time? No, because if they can see it coming, I’m fucked. They can easily grab me out of it, but it did catch much better players than I’ll ever be off guard because they did not see it coming.

          Plus R is littered with shit like this that doesn’t have any equivalent in Strive.

          I won’t defend Melty because most of my experience was playing MBAACC not Type Lumina, and there’s an argument to be made that what TL did compared to MBAACC is a lot similar to what Strive did compared to Xrd/Plus R. It does look like they’re expanding movesets though, which I would say is a step in the right direction.

          I also trust French-Bread more RN because what they did with Under Night, IMO, was chef’s kiss. The fanbase were just happy to get rollback with Sys:Celse and they threw in a bunch of new moves and systems on top of that, and they’re all pretty fun. It seems like they align more with what I find fun than ASW right now.